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Re: Wysong Epigen Fish and Epigen Venison Now Available!

Either my math is wrong - or your math is wrong - 60% protein

and 60% meat total 120% - what gives??????

60% meat refers to ingredients; 60% protein refers to the amount of protein in those ingredients.

Why are all of your Epigen ingredients not GMO free, instead of just some of the chicken? Seems like the product is ruined by the non-organic parts. For the cost, it seems like I should get all organic. After reading all of Dr. Wysong's stuff, I am so disappointed that your products are tainted like this.

Your concerns are understood and we wish there were no other factors to consider when formulating than the purity of ingredients.

But there are, starting off with the fact that it is impossible in our modern world to obtain perfect and pure foods. There are tens of thousands of both natural and synthetic toxins in foods. Even organics are not perfect. Many fat soluble toxins (e.g.ethoxyquin) are now so ubiquitous that they can be measured in every human and animal tissue.

To create a pristine food, as it appears you expect us to do, would require enormous costs in ingredients and purity testing driving the price far beyond anyone's reach. Tests alone for each batch of product made and for each ingredient would cost tens of thousands of dollars. Are you suggesting that you would pay that cost wrapped up in a product price no matter what it is? If not, what do you expect Wysong to do? The desire for perfect purity and low cost are incompatible.

If you say you are prepared to absorb that cost, then you should consider preparing your own foods at home whereby you can carefully scrutinize each ingredient. But do understand, even then you would not have a pure food as noted above. For us as a manufacturer trying to address the needs of the many while not compromising health, striving for a perfectly pure food with every package tested and verified, is not feasible.

All foods are a compromise to one degree or another. Cost dictates the degree. We have produced completely organic products in the past, but these valuable and costly products aged on shelves to eventually be discarded. We will continue to periodically try, but are not confident consumers will embrace the economics.

In the meantime, we would argue that our products are not tainted nor unhealthy. Quite the opposite. Although Wysong would like to be totally organic and strives for the best possible health options within affordable price ranges, for perspective, one must keep in mind that there is no scientific evidence whatsoever that any pet has been harmed because the foods they are eating are not organic.

A far more important issue in pet feeding is the common practice of singular feeding of starch-based diets. Even if you were to feed all organic starch-based foods in this way, health would be at risk for the reasons outlined in the Epigen website. Since this has and does cause millions of animals to suffer disease and death (real, as opposed to the hypothetical about ingredient purity), we have addressed this with Epigen.

I am interested in your Epigen dog food, but I am a little worried about the krill oil and how much my dog

would be getting, because it does thin the blood. I would appreciate any info you could give me on this subject. Thank you

Although the formulation is proprietary, I can say that krill oil is in Epigen™ at a minor level.

If you desire higher levels we would suggest supplementation. See Krill Oil™. Such supplementation along with Epigen™ would not result in over-dosage.

We are unaware of any scientific information indicating that krill oil thins blood.

Can you tell me how many servings, at ½ cup per day, are in the 8 lb Wysong Epigen bag?

And can you tell me, also, why there are fruits and vegetables in your cat foods, given cats are obligate carnivores and really shouldn't be eating any fruits or vegetables? I find it so difficult to find a dehydrated raw cat food without fruits and vegetables, which makes no sense, based on the research I've done.

There are approximately 28 cups in 1 - 8 lb. bag of Epigen™ (so at ½ cup per serving, approximately 56 servings).

Please see this link regarding fruits and vegetables: http://www.wysong.net/pet-health-and-nutrition/fruits-and-vegetables.php.

Thank you. My research has found that cats and dogs in the wild normally let the stomach contents of their prey spill before consuming the stomach lining, therefore they really don't eat fruits and veggies. And for cats especially, fruits and veggies are actually very hard on them since they weren't designed to eat them (much like I probably shouldn't adopt an all raw meat diet for myself...). So added plums and cranberries, etc., makes no sense to me. I can't figure out what the benefit of these ingredients may be.

On a different note, can you tell me how many servings are in an Archetype bag (I see only 7.5 oz bags on Wag.com and your site, though on Wag.com it states in the description that larger bags are available?). We have a kitten that will likely be a 10 lb cat soon, so at 1/3 cup per day, how many servings can I expect? And you may want to mention that offering this information on the packaging or online description would be helpful.

Thank you for your thoughts. Please understand that no processed food is the same thing as what an animal would obtain in the wild. The ingredients we choose try to push the food as close to that as possible and make up for the nutrients that processing tends to diminish or convert to toxins.

Do an Internet search on any of our ingredients thus: BENEFITS OF PLUMS, or BENEFITS OF CRANBERRIES.

After 35 years feeding hundreds of thousands of animals through multiple generations, with some pet living into their (unheard of) late twenties we believe Dr. Wysong's concepts work.

There are 5 cups of food in one bag of Archetype™. That would be 15 servings if fed 1/3 cup a serving. We do not have any other size bag of Archetype™, so we do not know to what Wag.com is referring, unless they mean the Archetype Buffet™, which is in an 19.5 oz. bag, and has approximately 12 cups of food.

I recently received an order of Wysong Epigen dog food. This food had been highly recommended to me by a fellow English Springer Spaniel Breeder in NY. I received the food the first week of July and started 3 of my 7 dogs on Epigen with a gradual introduction to the diet switch. One of these three dogs that was switched to this food whelped a new litter of puppies on July 5th. The food change for this bitch and two other bitches in my home initially went well with very little intestinal disturbance. After 7 - 10 days of the switch I began to notice red staining around the lips and muzzle of all three of the adult dogs that are eating this kibble. I also noted the mother dog having increasingly dark staining on her belly and the fur around her mammary glands. The puppies photographed became increasingly stained on their front (only) paws and around their muzzles as well, where they were in contact with their dam during nursing. When this was noticed I tried washing the affected areas (front paws, chins and muzzles) after at least one or more of their mealtimes each day without success at removal of the stain.

I have show dogs, in which I pride myself with having clean dogs without stains, having coats that are well maintained. After reaching out with my concerns to other fellow breeders and dog exhibitors on a social media site in regards to this new staining I was witnessing, it was suggested by many, as what I had felt, that the staining issue most likely had to be food related in this case of the only affected dogs being the ones currently ingesting this food. The other dogs in my home have maintained their clean white facial/muzzle fur as did these dogs before they started starting on this diet.

I am very dissatisfied with the developed staining on only the dogs (and the puppies of the one dog) that were switched to this food. I have discontinued using Epigen and would like to return the food as it clearly is not a food that my dogs can do well on. Since stopping the food, I have changed them to another high quality diet. In the last few days I am already seeing changes that the staining is slowly fading from all the affected dogs and puppies.

Please let me know what your thoughts are on how to proceed with this situation. Obviously I will not use this food again and would like to return it. I spoke to Customer Service and they had mentioned that I would need to pay for the return shipping on the unused product (I still have two full cases and one single bag ) of this food in order to be reimbursed for the unused cases only. I was also told I had to pay for the shipping before a refund could be made of only the unopened cases of food. I bought your product in good faith and therefore I do not feel that would be appropriate when your product did not provide the results I was hoping for. Please advise me on how you would like to rectify this situation and provide a mutually acceptable resolution. I look forward to receiving your positive response and thank you for your attention on this matter.

Thank you for your recent e-mail regarding Epigen™. We are sorry to hear of the issue you have encountered feeding Epigen™. We have had no similar reports even though thousands of animals across the country have consumed this diet for several years. However, it is always possible for some animals to be intolerant to or react strangely to certain ingredients.

We can send you some samples of our other diets if you would like to try them with your dogs. The Optimal™ diets have low carbohydrate content (if that is your goal) and they may work well for you.

As for a return, we will issue a call tag for the boxes to be returned to Wysong and give you credit or a refund, your choice.

I would like to know the maximum crude fat in Epigen (chicken).

The fat percent on the label is a minimum. The actual amount is 13-15% (which would also be the maximum).

Minimums are stated because our foods are made with whole, not refined ingredients, and we are not attempting to target precise percentages since that has little to do with health. See The Truth About Pet Foods Book.

Can you tell me what the carb content is in the Epigen foods? Is it possible that you might ever include organ meat in the venison variety. Can you tell me if the 60% protein is meat protein alone or it includes the potato protein and any other plant proteins in the formula? Thanks.

Other than meat and organ glycogen and plant fibers, there is no carbohydrate in Epigen™.

If you wish to feed organ meats, consider adding the Au Jus™ canned diets, which are starch free™, and contain meats and organs.

As for the protein, approximately 70% is from the meat and 30% from the vegetables. The Epigen 90™ is all meat protein, and does not contain any vegetable proteins.

Thank you for your response but if there are carbs from the meat and organ glycogen and the plant fibers could you please tell me what percent of the product those carbs make up? Thank you so much

Probably less than 5%.

Please note that although manufacturers may detail percentages to appeal to a particular market, a person cannot know if these values are correct without lab testing each batch of product produced by that manufacturer. This is why targeting percentages in foods does not and has never worked for achieving long-term health. One can neither know what the percentages truly are, nor exactly how the percentages impact any given animal.

Thank you for the information. I do have a couple more questions. I understand that you are saying that percentages are estimates but you do estimate on some nutrients like protein and fat. Is there a difference in quantifying carbohyrates and estimating protein and fat? Also I am interested in the Au Jus food but see that it has no nutrients added. If one adds the supplement that you have for sale that can be used with the Au Jus will it now be balanced? Thank you.

Protein and fat content are not estimated.

We recommend the Call of the Wild™ supplement with the Au Jus™ canned diets.

I am not sure what you mean. Is it different to determine the protein than to determine the carbs?

Another question. How are you defining starch? I don't understand how the food could have carbs but be starch free. I thought carbs and starch were the same thing.


These questions relate to the Epigen.

Since we do not use carbohydrates in the formulas, we do not test for them.

Starch is a type of carbohydrate. Not all carbohydrates are starches. We suggest doing a Google search to learn more about the different types of carbohydrates. Please also see the Epigen™ website: www.wysongepigen.net, and the following link: Starch Free™ vs. "Grain-Free": http://wysongepigen.net/Epigen%20Flyer.pdf.